Joss: You can’t be attached to a specific product or a feature or an idea or a potential customer. You constantly have to take a step back and pivot. And I think doing that is really important, specifically as a leader, because when you’re responsible for the motivation of everyone around you, you can’t have something fall over and everybody else then lose that faith and motivation. You have to kind of live those values yourself in order to lead from the front.
Ben: Hey, thanks for listening. We’ve been starting, growing and leading businesses for over 50 years between us. Along the way, we’ve met lots of amazing people doing the same. We started to collect their wisdom, things they’d seen, real experiences that had taught them something, things they’d read that had inspired, and things they’d learned, the principles they’ve applied in growing their businesses. We call these Founder Hacks — the real experiences of real entrepreneurs growing real businesses. And this podcast is to share them with you. Welcome to Founder Hacks.
Ben: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Founder Hacks, our podcast where we love to discover the learning from amazing entrepreneurs. As always, I’m going to start by checking in with Alexander Moore — how on earth are you this week?
Alex: Not bad. I did some cycling around the Outer Hebrides, which was pretty good — spent a week getting battered by the rain. It was a good time for thinking, gentlemen.
Ben: Blimey, he’s been thinking, that’s a bit scary. And Mr Antony Enright, how are you, what have you been up to?
Antony: Very good — been meeting some fascinating people this week, really learning a lot about where people are at and what it is they’re trying to achieve. So yeah, really good week.
Ben: Well, listen — this week we also have the enormous privilege of a guest with us, who we absolutely intend to take advantage of and get all of that entrepreneurial learning from her. So a huge welcome to Joss Tasker. Joss’s fabulous career includes a background in international law, starting at BlackRock, then moving to Octopus in the early days, as part of Octopus Labs and around when Octopus Energy began, then moved to Monzo, where she headed up their compliance function, prior to founding her own business, Sync Savings. Today, as founder and CEO of Sync, Joss is delivering her mission to get the UK saving. We live in a world where one in ten people in the UK have no savings at all, and I can’t quite believe this, but 49 percent of UK adults are considered financially vulnerable by the FCA. Undoubtedly a mission that is absolutely critical, and I confess I’m a huge fan — so let’s give a big, lovely Founder Hacks welcome to Joss. Welcome, Joss.
Joss: Thanks for having me.
Ben: Not at all — thank you for joining us, so good to have someone interesting for once.
Antony: You know, having had some time with Joss to talk about what she’d like to share with us today, I can guarantee interest, and I think we’ve got some fantastic learning ahead.
Ben: So Joss, we had a chat and you had a theme you thought your Founder Hacks could resonate around — do you want to give us a bit of a hint of what’s to come?
Joss: Oh yeah — I think one of my biggest learnings has been around being authentic, and to me that has loads of angles — how I express the purpose of my business and not shy away from it, not try to dress it up as something that feels and looks really commercial, how I present myself with my team, and how I think about female leadership, which I think is an evolving, moving feast. I like the idea there’s way more flexibility in that concept, and it really has to come from us — it doesn’t have to come from anyone else. That’s what I’ve been really enjoying working on, working on myself, so that I can hopefully be a better leader and deliver more effectively on the mission of Sync.
Ben: That you so eloquently rounded off there — so thank you. All right, well, I can’t wait to get stuck into it. As always, dear listener, we’ll be doing this in three ways — something Joss has seen, a real experience that’s taught her something, something she’s read that’s been a source of inspiration, and something she’s learned, a principle she’s applied in her business and leadership. So without further ado, let’s kick off. Joss, I’d love to hear — what have you seen that has taught you something?
Joss: So the thing I’ve seen has been more sort of a playing back to myself — I’ll just share one specific scenario where I feel I wasn’t authentic, and didn’t display authentic leadership, and ultimately that screwed me and just didn’t land well with anyone. Just a little bit of context in case it’s helpful — my business, our mission, is to help everyone save more. Even having £200 in savings makes you about 20 percent less likely to fall into problem debt, and it just skyrockets from there — by the time you’ve got £2,000 you’re 60 percent less likely to fall into problem debt. It’s amazing as an employee benefit for that reason, because so many people are stressed at work because they’re worried about money. On the other hand, the other part of my business is I deliver cheap, sticky retail liquidity — sort of cash — to banks. I help banks diversify their pool of liquidity, essentially, that’s the money they get to lend, especially these challenger banks, they need retail money, but usually they get it from best-buy tables, and that money comes and goes — we call them rate tarts, people who move around, driven by the interest rate they’re going to get. I was actually reflecting with you, Ben — I was with a bank, a large investment bank, they were very interested in this flavour of money and wanting to work with us, and I was kind of giving it the hard sell. I mentioned a couple of partnerships in the course of making, one with a large retailer, more for illustrative purposes. I think I wasn’t in a very grounded place. That conversation went very badly, because that person then went and told this retailer, and they chose not to work with us. That was a huge fail, I suppose, on me. Now, when I’m talking to banks, I like to say — and this is really interesting — in fact what they’re interested in is our purpose and our mission — the banks aren’t my customer, the partners we have are my customers. And I think that reframing, detaching from that, thinking about who am I, what am I trying to achieve, helped me reach the realisation — and now I’ve got lots of banks come to me all the time asking, how do we get in on this — not only because they want cheap money, a lot of them want something intangible, which is they’re very interested in that purpose. That’s much more valuable than I had thought — I hadn’t priced that in, but now it’s really interesting that I can. And I think a lot of that is down to myself, my co-founder, and the team more widely, and the mission having an inherent value to those deposit-takers. They want to be involved for that reason. And that was a good lesson to myself.
Ben: Wow, what a lesson, thank you for sharing it. Crikey — I mean, it sounds very much — I can see Antony Enright, who loves his purpose stuff, champing at the bit now.
Antony: I just think, Joss, it’s so interesting to hear you talk, because I’m hoping the founders listening — we’ve all been there, right, we’ve all been in that situation where we think we’ve got to sell and put ourselves across in a particular way, and then we learn the hard way, don’t we, that actually if we build it with purpose, people will come, and if we’re authentic to ourselves, people will come. But it’s so hard to learn that lesson, especially when you’re first starting out, because I think the world we live in tells us we’ve got to be X, Y and Z, and especially when you’re going to some of these banks that can be quite intimidating. I’ve been in that scenario as well, sitting on the other side of the table. And I think with age, for me, it’s helped — you just go, actually, I don’t care about that stuff anymore, what I care about is my purpose, and that’s what’s really important. And that’s so empowering when you feel you can occupy that space — because, yeah, I’m not an investment banker, I don’t want to be, I don’t need to compete with investment bankers. And I suppose, I’ll come to it when we talk about what you’ve learned, but standing for something is a source of empowerment and motivation. That feeds, I hope, if we can lean into that and not be ashamed of it, or feel like — oh, I need to be more commercial, people won’t see me as commercial because I’ve got a purpose-driven organisation, I won’t raise money because I actually care about my mission. Do you know what I mean? But yeah, it’s a challenge — hopefully I’m getting there.
Joss: People do business with people. I think that’s one of the things I’ve definitely learned probably in the last ten years or so, because I can relate to it — certainly for me, this leadership thing thrust upon me quite a young age. And probably spent the first — longer than I care to admit — thinking, well, the job is to pretend to be something you’re not, so that these people will accept you and give you money. And actually that’s a really hard way to do it, because you get seen through, you don’t show up in the right way, and you spend a lot of energy and effort trying to convince people about stuff that isn’t actually true. Whereas it’s just so much more attractive if you’re showing up as you are, with absolutely clean intention — yeah, it works.
Ben: What do you think, Alex? You’ve come across this in your many travels?
Alex: Yes, well — thanks, Joss, for sharing a mistake that helped you see something, it’s quite good, because it’s quite easy to not be that open. A lot of people will talk about their successes, and I think many, many founders have got in trouble by bigging up their businesses — you weren’t the first or the last to do it, I’ve actually done it too. And I’m reminded — that open honesty — nobody really likes to be sold to. I read a book years ago and I’ve mentioned it to the guys a few times, called The Art of Effortless Living — achieving more by trying less hard. I love that, and I think being yourself, being authentic, and trying less hard, combined together, is a kind of style I feel very comfortable with now when I try and sell things. And I do like selling things, by the way. But it’s that combination that works for me. Antony, do you disagree?
Antony: I just think when you first start out it’s really hard, isn’t it, because that’s the point where you go — I’ve started this, maybe you’ve borrowed money or remortgaged the house — and all you’re thinking is I’ve got to bring sales in, I’ve got to bring sales in. I remember, after I’d sold my business and reinvented myself into what I’m doing now, going to a meeting where I didn’t have the time to take any more work on, and I think that was the best sales meeting I’d ever had, because I went in truly myself — I was like, I don’t really have time for this. And then I learned the lesson of going — how can we be that when we’ve got all this pressure around us, especially when we first start out? How can we be that authentic self when we’ve got so much pressure and so much riding on it? And it’s just that reminder that actually people buy you when you’re being authentic, don’t they, they buy you when you’re being true to your purpose, and they buy in — because, just like, we’ve never met before, I hear you talk for two or three minutes, and I’m bought immediately into this, what can I do to help you live that purpose as well, because it’s so important. And that’s where people jump in when they get involved, isn’t it. But it’s how do you do it when you’re first starting out, that’s the challenge, isn’t it.
Joss: It’s so interesting you say that — I definitely have that approach now more so with the banks I work with, and we’ve got some great banks and I really like them, it’s brilliant to work with them, and it’s nice when they share the purpose. But how do I let go of thinking I need to deliver them something? And that requires some level of abundance mindset, doesn’t it, and when you feel like you’re in a world of scarcity — and in my position I’m looking around at all the data as well — like two percent of VC funds go to women, how many of those women have got children, how many of those women are the main provider — probably even less so. So you just think — oh god, I’ve no business being here, and I’ve now got to do business on this. And I guess also as a founder you’re earning less money, so you’re feeling that scarcity, which is interesting, because it’s something I talk about all the time in terms of cash savings — having no savings puts you in that scarcity mindset, which means you’re actually 13 IQ points less intelligent, which I find really interesting. So I’m sort of experiencing that to some extent, but also trying to access this place of authenticity, which I think is also very important, to feed into this idea of detachment that we’ll come on to. And then hopefully — there’s loads of people who want to work with me, of course they do, there’s loads of business to be done, loads of people will benefit from this. You have to believe that, then you have to have a bit of blind hope, a bit of blind faith. But then you see it, when you’re actually able to live your purpose, how powerful it can be and how much happier you can be, because then you realise it’s bigger than anything else.
Ben: Well, we’ve talked a lot over the years about our ability to choose our state of being as founders as we go, and that definitely sounds like one of the big challenges — how do you know you’ve got to try and be in that abundance mindset even when things are scarce, what a challenge. But maybe what Joss has read will give us some hints about how we can do that.
Antony: Good segue, Ben.
Ben: Good segue, Ben — you like that? That’s good, wasn’t it, very smooth. So without further ado, time waits for none of us — I’d love to hear, Joss, what have you read that’s been a source of inspiration for your leadership and your business?
Joss: Yeah, I think it’s just this idea of letting go — letting go of outcomes, a bit like what you were alluding to, Antony, where you turn up, you don’t really have time for this, you haven’t attached yourself to a specific outcome in that meeting. That’s a form of this theory of detachment — there’s lots written about it, I really like Morrie Schwartz’s book, The Law of Detachment, which is about releasing attachment to outcomes in order to allow all these other good things to come into your life. I think that’s been interesting to me as a founder, and it loops back to this idea of authenticity as well, because when you release those ideas about who you should be, what deals you should be winning, who you should be working with, you can open up a place where you become more authentic, more self-sufficient. And things are never going to go your way — most startups fail because they don’t find product-market fit — you can’t be attached to a specific product or feature or idea or potential customer. You constantly have to take a step back and pivot, and I think doing that is really important, specifically as a leader, because when you’re responsible for the motivation of everyone around you, you can’t have something fall over and everybody else then lose that faith and motivation. You have to live those values yourself in order to lead from the front. You might lose a deal you really wanted, and you need to be able to internalise that and move forward and bring everybody with you. So I think that’s been a really interesting one for me, personally.
Antony: Yeah, it really makes a lot of sense to me — I think I went through many years where — it’s this balance, so often we come back to these things of balance, right, there is that thing we’re told as founders from the world out there, that it’s that sort of obsession with our business that forces it into being, and there’s probably some truth in that. But equally I recognise, maybe as a business grows, you have to move to a place of letting it — and I’ve seen so many founders get it wrong, because they get to a certain point and what’s actually causing the business not to grow is them, because they’re not letting it, they’re not allowing it, they’re so attached to — it must be this, it must be whatever the outcome is, it’s got to be this way or it doesn’t count — and what they’re actually doing is stifling the business becoming what it wants to become. I know that’s a bit fluffy, but it’s so practical in terms of what you see founders get wrong, and you must have seen it, right?
Joss: Yeah, I have seen it, and I think it’s one of those things — once a business has gone from startup to scale-up, we talk about how do we get to the point of saying no, being really focused on who your core customer should be, where the growth is going to be, where that fits into your purpose. But at the very beginning, how can you say yes to everybody? It’s a little bit like when I hear songwriters talk — they write a song, put it out there, and they’re asked what does the song mean, and it’s like, well, it means this to me, but it might mean something completely different to you. And that’s how — a lot of songwriters are cool with that, some are not. I think it’s the same when you start a business — you have this concept of a product or service, put it out there, and you think you know who’s going to buy, how much they’re going to pay, how much the margin is — but until you get out there, you don’t really know. So for me, it’s about — if you can have that detachment of just say, right, I’ve created this, now let’s see what the feedback is, let’s see what the market says, let’s see who we think our customers are going to be. That’s why I love that when you first start, you say yes to everybody, and whilst it’s chaotic, and then you have different processes and procedures, you really learn about your product — so your product or service starts off as A and becomes X, Y and Z after a year or two, because you’ve found it hasn’t quite met the need you thought it would, but it’s met the need for somebody else, or iterated into something else. I love that idea of detaching yourself from it, a bit like the songwriter — write it, let it go, and let’s see what comes back. Much harder to do in practice, but if you can detach yourself and keep saying, okay, we’ll say yes to everybody at the beginning — I think it’s dangerous if you keep saying yes as the business matures, but certainly at the beginning you might uncover — I remember when I first started out, I thought this is who I’m going to sell to, this is what I’m going to do, this is the margin, and it was so different after 18 months, because of all the things I didn’t know. Alex, any resonance with that?
Alex: Yeah, a lot, a lot. And, Joss, thanks for sharing something — I haven’t heard of this letting go of outcomes before, but it seems really interesting. I think my feedback on this is great — they’re looking after your own personal development as your business grows, to support your business. I’m a big fan of — one of my favourite quotes is set a goal so big that you can’t achieve it until you grow into a person who can. And I think it’s very important — when people ask which business books should I read to grow my business, I’m like, I wouldn’t read any business books, I’d read books on stuff like this — how to stay sane, how do I grow, how do I adapt myself, so that my business can grow. So it sounds like a very interesting book. You mentioned earlier it’s sort of based on some Buddhist principles — do you want to expand on that a bit more?
Joss: Yeah, I think it’s just this idea of letting go, and how powerful that can be, because I think we all hold so much, don’t we — a lot of the tension you might feel in your nervous system is generally things you’re walking around with that aren’t necessarily helping you. And Ben, you mentioned ‘Let Them’ — that’s Mel Robbins, the famous podcaster, not as famous as you folks, but pretty famous — she has this theory about Let Them, and the idea is, it’s about ultimately, I think there’s a lot of psychology in there too, but it’s really about not trying to control anyone else. I think that’s a really interesting way of running a team — let them, let people show you who they are, let people do what they’re going to do, and then you can decide if that chimes with you. I’m personally not a Buddhist, I’ve done some meditation though, not very good at it. But I think that’s just a very interesting practice, of inviting thoughts and feelings and then releasing them. And interestingly, what you were saying, Antony, about when you say yes to everything and then start to understand where your niche is and where you’re going to fit — it’s really empowering over time to start being able to say, if people come to me, I’m increasingly in the position to say, this payroll savings product works really well for these types of people in these contexts, and if X, Y, Z are true. And I think, as you said, Alex, no one wants to feel sold to, but you’re saying, if these things are true, this could really work for you. And I think you learn over time that if you try to force something, everybody’s going to have a crap time and it’s not going to take off, whereas if you find people — you can tweak your products so that it works, and then if you can authentically say, with conviction, I think this will work for you for these reasons, if these things are true on your end — if they’re not, fair enough, I understand, and be willing to actually walk away at that point, and not try to force something that doesn’t feel like it wants to fit. And then everything else works better — the sales cycle is much quicker, onboarding is much quicker, the partner is more excited about marketing the savings products, they’ll let us talk to their leaders so we can inspire them to talk to their teams to start saving. And you’d rather have fewer of those, and at the end of the day get more people saving and more cash balances, than more where it’s been a very tricky sell.
Ben: Powerful stuff, powerful stuff. It kind of feels like the reward here is a business as good as everyone in it, rather than only as good as you as the founder, and I think that’s what I took from it — I love that idea, because I dread to think my business can only be as good as me, that terrifies me. But we must move on, we must move on — Joss, what have you learned that has helped you create the business you’ve created?
Joss: I think there’s two things — one is if you don’t stand for something you stand for nothing, and that’s what I remind myself of when I want to feel that purpose. The other one is that people remember how you made them feel — and that’s it, they don’t remember anything else really, I don’t think. And I think both those things remind me personally to be authentic.
Ben: That’s wonderful — it’s a bit of a theme all the way through what you’ve shared, that it comes back to this piece that I sometimes find myself talking to founders about — at the end of the day it’s people that do business, no business has ever bought anything, no business has ever made a decision, because it can’t, it’s a theoretical construct we made up to organise our society. That’s what a business is, actually — it’s always a human, and those humans might do complicated things like put themselves in committees, complex structures, but it’s still humans making all those decisions. I think you’re so right that at the end of the day people do business because they like and trust the person they’re doing business with, and because they feel good about it. And perhaps going back to your first example of getting that wrong, which God knows I’ve done so many times, it absolutely puts you in such a powerful position if you can be the whole of you in those situations where you’re trying to build a partnership, build that relationship — and that probably does come from standing for something, whatever it is.
Joss: Because you don’t enter into this journey because you want to get rich quick — most startups fail — it’s a huge sacrifice, a huge personal sacrifice, and I think everyone does it for their own reasons — that’s a whole other interesting conversation. But for me, whatever happens, I want to walk away feeling like I have been true to myself, and I’ve done something meaningful, at least to me, and feel proud of what it was. That means the purpose is really important, and it’s really important to feel good about what you’re doing day to day, because we only live once, we’ve got to enjoy this time — I think that’s the other thing, you’ve got to extract joy from it, and seeing a ping when someone’s signed up, or paying out interest to all our savers at the end of the month — it’s such a buzz, it brings me so much joy.
Alex: Super important as well — could I add one thing? I really like that — I think a lot of non-entrepreneurs think entrepreneurs set up businesses because they want to make money, and I find that to be — of course people want to make money, but I don’t think that’s the purpose, and I think nearly all the interesting entrepreneurs I’ve ever met, they’ve got this purpose, they’re driven by that, they believe in something. And the stronger they believe in that something, the more likely they are to make that success — so it’s not only about half-believing in something, go in fully committed. When you said that, I just love it. And I do think how you make people feel — I’ve never heard that quote before — but they do remember you. Something Antony told me years ago — people make decisions with emotion and then justify with logic. And you go in there with your belief, with your conviction, and that gets you through the hard times, gets your business — gets people to believe in you, follow you, helps you raise money, helps convince people to want to work with you, and through that you can achieve great things. So love that, love that. Antony, do you have anything?
Antony: Well I’ve got so much, I’ve got so many questions, but I know we don’t really have the time. Just for me — are you able to capture the stories of how you make people feel, are you able to do that? So when you say people are signed up, and the impact that has — because I think, being able to capture that — sometimes I know lots of owners of businesses don’t always get the time or make the time to do that. But do you get the stories from people of how it’s made them feel?
Joss: Yeah, it’s so important, isn’t it — we’re starting to, yeah, we should do more of it though, it’s a good reminder. I think we all feel like it’s hard, and some people are — I know, we just did this pilot with an NHS partnership, the first month we just opened payroll savings pots for people who worked in payroll, so they could process it themselves and feel confident, because a lot of the time they’re just very put upon — and I mean, payroll’s the hard, thankless job, very difficult, but yeah, that was one we just captured, that user story — we were like, do you mind if we share it, and they were like, oh, payroll people are used to being a bit hidden, but it was really nice to be able to celebrate some of those people and hear about how proud they are to have impact and help other people on their team as well. But yeah, that’s something we should do more of, because every time it happens it’s just a wonderful thing — it helps because it’s not just you telling the story and sharing the purpose, it’s them sharing it as well, isn’t it.
Ben: Yeah, and I think from a sales perspective I don’t think there’s anything more impactful than social proof — cut through the noise more than that. Because what I heard you say there, Joss, was something about how it nourishes you, which I can really relate to — you’ve got to find that thing as a founder, you’ve got to find that thing in your business that nourishes you, right, you’ve got to get it somewhere, because it is hard and thankless and relentless and all of those things. And it sounds to me, I can really relate to that, that moment of watching that save, that sign-up, hearing the little ping in your Slack channel, whatever it is — just giving you that moment, that moment you just need to go, yes, okay, tick, that’s one more little bit of purpose realised, one more little thing, which must be very nourishing.
Joss: It’s amazing. And also seeing little clusters of people who’ve obviously chatted to each other and decided to put 100 percent of their salary into savings and then draw it down as they need it, to maximise the interest — and then somebody else does it, somebody else does it, and you can see they’re all in the same places, it’s just amazing to see, it’s really cool.
Ben: We need to hear more about that, don’t we, as a society — I think we need to hear way more about those stories and way more about that impact, because we’re so — my experience is so ill-educated over finance and savings, it’s only really in the last few years I’ve started doing it, which is ridiculous, and the amount of compound interest I’ve missed out on. But I’m now looking at my children, and it’s like — how can we — amazing to think they’re drawing down 100 percent into savings and living off that. Isn’t that amazing?
Joss: It is, it’s so cool. I’m very passionate about this topic — people who talk about money have better relationships, feel more in control of their finances, and they’re more likely to meet their long-term financial objectives. And a lot of the time it’s not talking to people outside your peer group, it’s talking to your peers, your parents, your colleagues — such a healthy thing to do, but money is still such a taboo in our society, we think it’s none of our business, or we don’t feel we can talk to other people about it, and that’s a big blocker, I think, for a lot of people.
Ben: Amazing — well, a final reminder of the amazing mission that Sync is on. Thank you, Joss. So, look, some amazing Founder Hacks, sadly we are at time — you have to come back, Joss, and do more, because this could have gone on for so much longer.
Joss: This has been a lovely, like, therapy session.
Ben: Thank you, this is what we say, right, you’ve got to have some founder therapy, this is where this all started. But thank you, I feel very therapised and very inspired. So if it’s okay, I’ll just quickly try to summarise the Founder Hacks we’ve had today. So today we have learned from Joss Tasker on authenticity. Joss started by sharing a story with us that in the quest for authenticity, things may not always run smooth — she recognised, though, that moment for herself of getting it wrong. The temptation to give the hard sell and go beyond is always there for us, but Joss’s learn was that trusting in your purpose, and that the right partners will value you for that, is probably the long-term win. Perhaps the authentic approach is the one that can win us through in our businesses, the challenge being how we preserve that abundance mindset it can take to stay in that space, even in the scarcity of our early days. Joss was also inspired by Morrie Schwartz’s book — the Law of Detachment has been a huge inspiration on her journey. Releasing yourself from those shoulds imposed from without can free you as a founder and leader — instead you can focus on noticing the opportunities that present along the way. Maybe being over-attached to specific beliefs about your business can become stifling, whether about your product, your customers, or how things get done. Although counterintuitive, letting go could be the rocket fuel for your business, and the rewards — a business as good as everyone who’s part of it, rather than only as good as you. Finally — if you don’t stand for something, you stand for nothing. And people only remember how you made them feel. Few real founders do what they do to get rich quick, but are actually here to build something amazing. For Joss, what fuelled her in that was noticing those moments of nourishment along the way, those successes — the savers signing up, the interest they’re paying out, has allowed her to maintain that abundance mindset and stand for her mission to get Britain saving. So for you — where do you take that nourishment in your business to maintain your passion, your authenticity, to lead your team and take your business to its full potential? I hope that was okay, Joss, to summarise some fantastic Founder Hacks. It remains to say, thank you hugely to Joss for joining us today — I think another round of applause.
Joss: Thank you, some really cool hacks, really — thank you so much for having me, it’s such a pleasure.
Ben: Thank you — I’m not kidding, I’m going to ask you to come back, it’s going to happen.
Alex: Then you’re — you told me that wrapping up is your superpower — that was glorious.
Ben: It is, mate, and that’s why we don’t talk after it, you can’t beat it.
Alex: Yeah, what just happened, yeah — and he makes it all up as he goes along, that’s what I like.
Ben: Isn’t that what being a business is all about? Running a business, you do make it up as you go along, of course you do — some people are better than others, this is what I get. Yeah, I take the learning from this, guys, I’m here to learn, it’s fantastic. But thank you so much, Joss, for joining us.
Joss: Thank you so much for having me — lovely to meet you, Alex and Antony, thank you for your time. And thank you so much, Ben — thanks for teaching me so much today, really loved it.
Ben: And of course thank you very much, Alex Moore, for joining us today.
Alex: My pleasure.
Ben: And thank you very much to Antony Enright too.
Antony: Yeah, thank you all — and Joss, I think there’s a lot more for us to learn, so we’ve got to get you back.
Joss: Well, anytime, thank you.
Ben: Joss, and thank you, dear listener, for joining us today, please stay tuned, there will be many more Founder Hacks soon to come. Until next time, I’ve been Ben Thomas. This has been Founder Hacks, and thank you very much indeed for listening. Founder Hacks is brought to you by Atomex — bespoke support for the startup-to-scale-up journey. Editing is by Paul Stevens, and music is by Reuven. Join us again soon for more Founder Hacks.
